Live Interactive Chat

Answers to Questions (Transcript)

See also: Biography and Related Resources

IELmoderator
Greetings, IEL Chat participants. Welcome to IEL's second online chat of Spring 2005, another in the online chat series sponsored by the Illinois Early Learning (IEL) Project. Tonight's Chat is titled "Saying No to Your Child." We'll begin our chat by introducing tonight's guest speaker, Dr. Lilian G. Katz of the University of Illinois and Principal Investigator for the Illinois Early Learning project.

Lilian Katz
Hello, everyone! We're talking tonight about one of the typical concerns of parents about young children—saying NO. I'm looking forward to seeing your questions.

IELmoderator
The procedure for the live Chat session is as follows. Participants can send questions to the chat guest at any time. When you send your question, please note that it will not be visible to all chat participants. The IEL Moderator receives the question first and will post it to the whole chat group. If there's a long queue of questions, the Moderator will notify the questioner that the question was received. Then, at the next break in the discussion, the question will be posted for all to see and for our guest to answer.

Note that there will be a pause after a question is posted while the Chat guest speaker composes a response to the question. So please be patient! During these pauses, the Moderator will post occasional information about the IEL Web site. Because some Chat participants enter the Chat in the middle of the session, some of these messages may be posted more than once.

Questions will be posted in the order they're received, unless there's some obvious reason to group similar questions together. Participants may send follow-up questions. If you do send a follow-up question, please remind the Guest and other participants of the earlier question (something like "In my earlier question about the third-grader's reading difficulty…") because it's easy to forget earlier questions in the long list of questions that occur during the Chat session.

If your question is not answered by the time the Chat session ends at 8 pm, the question and its answer will be included in the Chat transcript that will be made available online approximately 3 weeks from today.

If, at any time during the chat, you want to review the procedure for participating in the chat session, you can do that at this Web page: http://ecap.crc.uiuc.edu/info/ecapchat.html or in Spanish at: http://ecap.crc.uiuc.edu/info/ecapchat-sp.html.

IELmoderator
Now let's begin our chat. Dr. Katz, we have a question that we received in advance of the session.

A parent in my child care program offers lengthy explanations to her 4-year-old son every time she sets limits on his behavior. She explains why he can't do such and so, all the things that might happen to him if he did do such and so, what else he could do instead, how it makes her feel to have to tell him no, and so on. How can I let this mother know that her message gets lost in all her words?

Lilian Katz
I assume that you want to help the mother because her strategy isn't working very well. If that's the case, you could open up the subject by letting her know that you would be glad to make suggestions if she feels the need for help with setting limits for the child.

If she doesn't bring it up herself, but the adjustment of the child in the child care program raises this issue, then you can invite her to a brief chat about what you've noticed about her child when he is in the program. Then you can describe some of the strategies the staff has used that seem to work; then you could offer some suggestions that might help him have a better experience in the program.

During the chat you can indicate that most children of this age adapt better to a complex environment when the adults state the rules and limits clearly, firmly but briefly, as the situations arise. Experience suggests that when adults offer lengthy explanations for their rules or requirements, the very young seem to psychologically put their hands over their ears and want to say, "Just tell me what you want in two easy sentences." They are not, at this age, really involved in complex rationales and the details of possible consequences of various actions.

artsy
Do you say "No" to toddlers and expect it to have meaning other than just being harsh?

Lilian Katz
artsy, the actual words that you use aren't what matters. Whether you use the word "no" or not is not the critical issue. What matters is that you make clear to the child what you want him to do and don't want him to do. The best way to do that is to say "I don't want you to pour the water on the floor"—or whatever it is—rather than just "no."

Deb
I teach Early Childhood Education at a state college in Indianapolis. I have found that many of my students are concerned about parents in the centers where they work, who feel guilt at having their child in extended hours of childcare. As a result, they are reluctant to say “no” to too much of anything their children do or say. They see themselves as a “pal” to their child, rather than a parent. Could you comment on this, please?

Lilian Katz
Deb, what you're describing is common and understandable. The important thing is to help the parent to understand that feeling guilty is their problem, not the child's problem. The children need limits and clear messages about what behavior you want and what behavior you don't want, whether they are in day care all day or not! Those are two different issues. I've often seen that parents think being indulgent of their children's wishes will make up for their being separated all day, but in fact, it makes the child less easy to enjoy, and that's the critical issue. Keep in mind that children you cannot control are very difficult to enjoy.

IELmoderator
You can find additional resources on "Saying No to Your Child" in the supplement to this Chat session. This supplement is available on the IEL Web site at this URL: http://illinoisearlylearning.org/chat/katz2005/sup.htm.

IELmoderator
Dr. Katz, here's a question that we received prior to the chat.

I'm fairly comfortable saying no to my children when we are in the safety of our home, but when we are in public—at the grocery store, park or library—my resolve weakens and I feel I am the center of attention. Those are the times when I am not consistent in setting limits. Any advice?

Lilian Katz
It certainly can be a bit embarrassing to have to scold or discipline our children in front of others—even if they are perfect strangers. The children have to learn that we mean what we say when we take them out into other environments.

If the children start to break the rules when you are away from home, you have no choice but to stick to your rules and limits, regardless of what onlookers might think. If the children sense that you are intimidated by the onlookers and are not acting on your true feelings, they very well might push you until you do enforce the rules—by which time you might be very angry, and the children will be miserable too.

Remember that some of those watching you will judge you as too harsh, and others as too lenient. The purpose of your actions is not to gain their approval or avoid their criticism. The focus is on helping the children to act responsibly in the out-of-home environment. Keep that goal in mind and don't let the outsiders bother you.

jeansigne
Do you have any suggestions for effective ways to back up a parent who is trying to set limits, but finding it difficult—perhaps because "the child's teacher" (me) is watching?

Lilian Katz
If you think that the parent is embarrassed about her own behavior in front of an "expert" like the teacher, then it's probably helpful to reassure the parent that you've been through this too, you understand it, that it happens to all of us, and to let her know that you'll be glad to help in any way. The key is to reassure the parent that you're not judging her.

IELmoderator
The transcripts of the IEL Chat sessions from 2002 through 2004 are archived on the IEL Web site. Go to the IEL Chat Resources page at: http://illinoisearlylearning.org/chatres.htm, then scroll down the page to the particular chat that you're interested in. For each chat, you'll see a link for "chat transcript." Click on that link to view the transcript for that particular Chat.Editor's note: This url has changed: http://illinoisearlylearning.org/askanexpert.htm#pastchat

The most recent Chat was on the topic of "Young Children's Mental Health" with guest speaker Samantha Wulfsohn of the Erikson Institute in Chicago. You can find the transcript for this chat on the Chat Resources page, or you can go directly to: http://illinoisearlylearning.org/chat/wulfsohn/trans.htm. The Spanish transcript of this chat is available at: http://illinoisearlylearning.org/chat/wulfsohn/trans-sp.htm.

The chat prior to that was from November 2004 and dealt with the topic of "TV, Computers, and Video Games—How Much Is Too Much?" with Carol Weisheit of STARnet. The transcript for this chat can be read at: http://illinoisearlylearning.org/chat/weisheit/trans.htm.

The Spanish version of this transcript, "La televisión, las computadoras y los videojuegos: ¿Cuánto tiempo es demasiado?" is also available at: http://illinoisearlylearning.org/chat/weisheit/trans-sp.htm.

Deb
Sometimes caregivers are upset that parents delegate discipline to them, rather than handling things themselves. For example, "Please have Joey put on his clothes I brought. He wouldn’t get out of his pajamas for me this morning." I tell them they should be happy to role model appropriate problem-solving techniques, and feel good that the parents feel they are competent to handle the situation. Can you comment, please?

Lilian Katz
Deb, I think this probably is a good way to handle this problem. It might be a good idea to have a discussion with the caregivers about their need to be patient with the parents, and acknowledge that it's annoying to have to do this, and that you understand their feelings. But refusing to do it would not help, either.

fraz
Hello, my question has to do with what to do when I'm suddenly surprised and embarrassed by my child's open expression of envy. We have taught our sons to graciously thank people who give them gifts, or so I thought. At Christmas we were together with one of my siblings and their extended family, probably eighteen people including six other children under 12. There were mountains of gifts under the tree and around it, and we thought the boys understood that they would just be receiving a few of those gifts, etc., and that everybody else would be giving and getting presents also. Their cousin opened a gift that turned out to be something they both had asked Santa for, but "Santa" didn't think it was a good idea so they had not received it. When they opened their own presents, they were both openly disappointed and rude. Maybe that shouldn't have surprised me because they are pretty young and it was sort of like having Christmas in a toy store, but I thought we had given them some tools for dealing graciously with being disappointed.

Lilian Katz
fraz, what "tools" for dealing graciously did you provide the boys with?

fraz
We have told them that people give them gifts they think the boys will like, and that the people have put thought into it, and to say thank you politely and think about the creative things they can do with the gift. We even sort of practiced once.

Lilian Katz
fraz, the one thing I would add is to acknowledge to the children that you understand their disappointment. You could say something like, "I think I'd be disappointed too, if I saw all that stuff and what the other children have, but you'll see in time that you can do lots with the presents you received." The idea is to acknowledge their feelings but not indicate that they are right to feel so disappointed.

maryjo
What is your suggestion for handling temper tantrums at home or out in public?

Lilian Katz
maryjo, tell us what you've tried so far, please.

maryjo
Usually with temper tantrums, I ignore them or remove the child from the store or remove myself from the room.

Lilian Katz
maryjo, regarding the temper tantrums, the age of the child matters. With a very young child, you really can't leave them alone, but you could leave a 5-year-old child alone, for example. Ignoring them might not work if the child is screaming. Again, it's the same principle—keep your emotional level low. Otherwise, the emotions on both sides, yours and the child's, escalate. You want to absorb the energy of the child having a tantrum like a sponge, and you can only do that if you remain calm.

IELmoderator
As noted above, Lilian G. Katz is the Principal Investigator for the Illinois Early Learning project. Dr. Katz is a graduate of Stanford University (Ph.D., 1968) and an international leader in early childhood education. She taught at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign for more than three decades—from 1968 until the year 2000, as well as directing the ERIC Clearinghouse on Elementary and Early Childhood Education (ERIC/EECE) for more than 30 years. She has lectured in all 50 U.S. states and in 43 countries, and she has held visiting posts at universities in Australia, Canada, England, Germany, India, Israel, the West Indies (Barbados campus), and many parts of the United States. In 1997, she served as Nehru Professor at the University of Baroda in India.

She also was one of the founders of the Illinois Association for the Education of Young Children and served as its first president. In addition, she served as vice-president of the National Association for the Education of Young Children (NAEYC) from 1986 to 1990 and later was elected president of NAEYC, serving from 1992 to 1994.

Dr. Katz has authored more than 150 publications, including articles, chapters, and books about early childhood education, teacher education, child development, and parenting. She wrote a monthly column for several years for Parents Magazine on parenting 3- and 4-year-olds. Dr. Katz founded two journals: Early Childhood Research Quarterly and Early Childhood Research & Practice. The latter began publication in early 1999 as the first peer-reviewed, Internet-only, journal in early education, and recently became fully bilingual.

Dr. Katz is currently Principal Investigator for the Illinois Early Learning Project and lectures and consults around the world.

artsy
When non-compliance becomes a major issue, what is the "chosen" form of effective discipline (time out, redirection, apologizing, etc.) for little ones?

Lilian Katz
artsy, it's very unlikely that time-out will work with very little ones. (It often doesn't work with older ones!) The best strategy is to restrain them by holding them for a short time, but not shouting or being angry, just very calmly. Hold on tight, and repeat your statement about what behavior you want, or don't want. You could say, "I don't want you to touch Grandma's flowers." But say it calmly, matter of factly, without a lot of emotion, until the child calms down. It's important to keep your level of emotion down.

IELmoderator
Here's some additional information concerning some of Dr. Katz's affiliations:

Information on the Illinois Early Learning (IEL) project (whose chat session you are presently attending!) is available at http://illinoisearlylearning.org/ and in Spanish at http://illinoisearlylearning.org/index-sp.htm.

Because the re-organization of the ERIC system that took effect on January 1, 2004, eliminated the former ERIC clearinghouses, the ERIC Clearinghouse on Elementary and Early Childhood Education (ERIC/EECE) is no longer in existence. However, many of the free publications that were produced by ERIC/EECE (including some for which Dr. Katz was the author) are still being made available by the Clearinghouse on Early Education and Parenting (CEEP), of which Dr. Katz is also Co-Director.

For information on CEEP, visit the clearinghouse's Web site at http://ceep.crc.uiuc.edu/. For archived books and Digests (many of the latter in English and Spanish) formerly published by ERIC/EECE, see the ERIC/EECE Archive section of the CEEP Web site at: http://ceep.crc.uiuc.edu/eecearchive/index.html.

More information about the National Association for the Education of Young Children and the Illinois Association for the Education of Young can be found on their Web sites, located, respectively, at http://naeyc.org/ and http://www.illinoisaeyc.org/.

The Early Childhood Research & Practice journal (as just noted, the first peer-reviewed, Internet-only journal in the field of early childhood education) can be accessed at http://ecrp.uiuc.edu/. Beginning with the Spring 2004 issue, this journal became fully bilingual in English and Spanish. Visit the Spanish home page at http://ecrp.uiuc.edu/index-sp.html.

Deb
I think one way to cut down on the number of “no’s” a child hears is to offer viable choices to him, so he can feel like he has some control over what is going on. Could you comment, please?

Lilian Katz
Deb, it's a good idea to keep the number of "no's" as low as you can. And if there are real choices, that makes a lot of sense and should help. But the choices have to be real.

artsy
What do you think of Jean Feldman's theory of the brain and responses to discipline being associated with brain areas?

Lilian Katz
artsy, I'm not familiar with her theory. Could you give us a brief summary of what her theory is about?

artsy
She says that there are three main areas of the brain and your response depends on where the child is. Physical aggression is one area: you cannot talk to this situation/child. The next area ... [involves] ... lesser aggression, lesser restraint, etc.. [The third area involves] ... the least .... give choices. She is the one that talks about "kissing your brain," etc.—kind of a new hot theory.

Lilian Katz
Artsy, thanks for letting us know about this theory—I wish I knew more about it!

Deb
My students are always looking for new techniques that are effective for discouraging biters. Do you have any advice I can share with them?

Lilian Katz
Deb, the age of the child matters with regard to preventing or stopping biting. If the child is a toddler, then an adult has to stay on top of it to prevent it, because you can't discipline him. If the child is preschool-age, then the child needs some direct individual help. The child might be asking for help by biting. Make it very clear that you don't want that behavior. When you say to a preschooler, "I don't want you to bite Billy," then you add, "And I don't want anyone to bite you, either, because it hurts." It's important to add the second part so the child knows that what you're saying to protect Billy, you will also say to protect him or her.

IELmoderator
Remember that the IEL Web site is available not only in English but also in Spanish. The Spanish home page is at: http://illinoisearlylearning.org/index-sp.htm.

Barb
How do you help parents learn to say "no" and set appropriate limits when that is something they feel uncomfortable doing?

Lilian Katz
Barb, everybody agrees that children need to feel loved by the adults who care for them. But what they often forget, is that they need to feel loved by someone they can look up to, and they cannot look up to an adult who is indulgent, whom they can manipulate, who is unclear about what behavior is acceptable and unacceptable, and if you can help parents to gain that insight, that might be the most important strategy to use.

IELmoderator
Dr. Katz, here's our next question.

My daughter and son-in-law waited a long time to have their child, who is now 3 years of age. She is a charming little girl, but has her parents wound around her little finger. When she is alone with me, we get along fine. I have no trouble acting as the authority figure. I don't really enjoy her company, however, when her parents are around, because she turns into a demanding, whiny tyrant. I don't want to be a meddling grandparent, but I also don't want my granddaughter to be completely undisciplined. Any suggestions?

Lilian Katz
In a situation like this, a lot depends on what kind of relationship you have with her parents. If the relationship is genuinely warm and solid, you could take advantage of a little "down time," for example, when the child is napping, to ask the parents how they felt about an incident you observed, or some incidents they've reported having to deal with at home.

Unless the parents of your granddaughter ask for your advice, there isn't much you can do. If they seem reasonably open to discussing the issues, then share your concern calmly, and offer some suggestions for handling critical moments. You might make the suggestions by saying things like "Some parents find it helps if they do such-and-such; others get better results with so-and-so strategies." Let them know that young children generally feel safer with parents they can look up to, and they cannot look up to parents they can manipulate.

IELmoderator
Remember that you may send a question at any time to the IEL staff. Just email your question to: iel@uiuc.edu.

You can also phone in a question. Please note that IEL's toll-free telephone number changed in 2004. The new number is 877-275-3227. IEL staff are usually available between 8-12 and 1-5 on business days.

Besides this general question-answering service, IEL offers an "Ask the Expert" service with Lilian Katz, tonight's presenter and the project's principal investigator. This service, called Ask Dr. Katz!, allows individuals to ask more extensive, in-depth questions about early childhood education than can be dealt with in the standard question-answering feature. Visit the Ask Dr. Katz! page at http://illinoisearlylearning.org/ask-dr-katz.htm.

artsy
Dr. Katz, how do you explain children that were ill behaved and end up perfectly bright, contributing citizens? That always amazed me!

Lilian Katz
Me, too, artsy! It's called resilience, by the way. The research on resilience shows that children who overcome these kinds of difficulties, who are not permanently damaged by undesirable experiences during childhood, generally have three qualities: something called "planfulness" of a particular kind (they are able to strategize where to hide, whom to be near to or far away from, using predicting intelligence to help them find conditions that might be least harmful); a second quality is somebody in their lives—perhaps just one person, often a teacher—who conveys confidence in their ability and capacity to cope with life; and the third quality is simply intelligence.

IELmoderator
If you're interested in this topic of resilience, you might want to check out ResilienceNet, a Web site that provides information and resources to help children and families overcome adversities. ResilienceNet is another project—along with the Illinois Early Learning project—of the Early Childhood and Parenting Collaborative here at the University of Illinois.

Check out the ResilienceNet Virtual Library, which has documents and articles related to children's and families' resilience; and the "Internet resources on resilience" section, which provides links to similar resources on the Web. These URLs are as follows:

• ResilienceNet home page
  http://resilnet.uiuc.edu/
• Virtual Library
  http://resilnet.uiuc.edu/library.html
• Internet resources
  http://resilnet.uiuc.edu/links.html

Much of the information and many of the resources on ResilienceNet are available in Spanish. The Spanish-language home page is at:

• http://resilnet.uiuc.edu/espanol/index-sp.html

IELmoderator
Dr. Katz, here's our next question.

Don't children learn how to think for themselves when we offer them lots of choices for behavior? Isn't saying "No" a rather top-down, old-fashioned response to guiding children's behavior?

Lilian Katz
Frequent opportunities to make choices can contribute to development in many ways. But there are at least two aspects to choice-making to consider beforehand. First, is the choice a real one? Can the child really refuse to do something the parent asks him or her to do, or can the child really choose to behave in ways the parent wishes to stop? So, before you clarify the choices confronting your child, make sure that all the available options are acceptable to you.

Be careful also about possible empty threats. Every once in a while, most adults make empty threats. "If you don't stop making that noise right now, you're not going with us to the park later," is the type of threat made under conditions of desperation! Usually the child knows you can't act out that threat, and that you are just at your wit's end. But if this happens frequently, you will lose credibility, and the threats will have no effect.

A second issue about offering children choices is not to have too many of them. A choice between two—or sometimes perhaps three alternatives—would be a sufficient number for most preschoolers.

Saying "no" in the right way is not as old-fashioned as it might seem. Our children are faced with many more temptations than preschoolers 50 years ago. Watch children try to choose which candy bar to buy. I've never tried to count how many there are to choose from! But today's preschoolers are unlikely to suffer from lack of choices.

When the situation does require a clear "no," say it firmly, acknowledging the child's desires: "Sure you want to watch TV. I understand that. But I think you've had enough for now." State your position in a matter-of-fact tone; no apologies, and no high level of emotion—almost businesslike and calmly and resolutely.

And then remember: Issues about rules and limits are inevitable as we socialize our children into a world full of temptations. But we don't want the content of our relationships with young children to be mainly about the rules. It should be about noticing interesting things, exchanging ideas on plans for what's next, remembering pleasant events of yesterday and about friends and relatives, and so forth—and not about who is winning the power struggle.

artsy
I agree. And it is intelligent children that I have seen this quality in. Lucky kids—having fun and getting away with it!

jpm
I've wondered about this incident for a couple of years, and I'd like your perspective. One of the mothers was visiting the classroom and was talking to her child and another boy (these are kindergartners). The other boy turned to me and said, "Guess what? I have three Beanie Babies!" (This was during the beanie baby craze, when a fast-food place was giving them out). The mom looked at her son and said, "Well, you have a hundred beanie babies, don't you, X? We counted them last night, and you have 100." The little guy who had been happy about 3 beanie babies just kind of looked at his feet and I had unkind thoughts about the mother of the hundred beanie child. The child with 100 beanies seldom heard the word No when it came to things he wanted, but the other child's circumstances were very different. I'm embarrassed to say that I was speechless. Would there have been a way to make this a teachable moment for all concerned?

Lilian Katz
jpm, we have no way of knowing from your description whether the child with the three beanie babies suffered in any way, so without that information, it's hard to imagine what you could have done. As to the mother who never said no, this would probably not have been a good time to take up her pattern of indulging her child. Maybe at another time that would be a good idea.

Deb
What about parents who have literally given up on their child at 3 years old, and are very open about admitting it?

Lilian Katz
Deb, do you have a relationship with this mother? Otherwise, there's nothing you can do.

IELmoderator
Tonight's online chat is the second IEL chat of calendar year 2005 and the fifth to be held during the 2004-2005 academic year. The next IEL Chat is scheduled for 7:00 pm Central Time on Wednesday, June 1. In this chat, Sallee Beneke will discuss "The Project Approach and the Early Learning Standards." Additional information related to this upcoming chat will be posted to the IEL Web site as it becomes available. Visit the Chat page at http://illinoisearlylearning.org/chat.htmEditor's note: This url has changed:http://illinoisearlylearning.org/askanexpert.htm#pastchat.

IELmoderator
And speaking of standards, particularly the Illinois Early Learning Standards developed by the Illinois State Board of Education, you can find these standards on the IEL Web site. Each learning standard falls under one of eight learning areas (such as Language Arts, Mathematics, etc.) and under one of 32 state goals (such as "read with understanding and fluency"). You can view the Illinois Early Learning Standards at: http://illinoisearlylearning.org/standards/.

Each learning standard is also associated with a number of benchmarks by which parents and caregivers can determine if children have met the early learning standard. The IEL staff has prepared a list of Web resources that are related to each benchmark, to help parents and caregivers use the benchmarks. To view these resources, simply go to the Illinois Early Learning Standards page, click on any of the Learning Areas, and then click on the name of the benchmark. For example, on the "Language Arts" learning area page at http://illinoisearlylearning.org/standards/languagearts.htm, click on "Understand that pictures and symbols have meaning and that print carries a message."

IELmoderator
Dr. Katz, here's our next question.

There is a new teacher in my center who has a rather traditional view of child rearing. She feels preschoolers should never question a teacher's authority and that a teacher should never have to explain herself. How can I help this teacher understand that she's not "giving in" to children when she explains the reasons we have for rules?

Lilian Katz
Most likely the easiest way to approach this situation is to model the less traditional approach in your own interactions with the children. Let the traditional teacher see a calm, matter-of-fact, but firm adult indicate in a simple way the basis for the rules, and then change the subject.

Like almost anything else that affects young children, too little and too much can be equally damaging. Thus, excessive explanation of the rules to the children can be just as debilitating as not enough talk about the rules. Figuring out just what is the optimal amount is not simple. Let the children's behavior be your guide.

If they increasingly show the ability to observe the rules, then you've probably got the amount of rule talk about right. If they constantly challenge or defy you, then either they don't appreciate the rationale for the rules, or they've had too much talk, and want some firmness and clarity. The purpose of the rules is to make it possible for the really important things to happen in a safe environment.

For example, because of the rules about turn-taking it is possible for all the children to have the experience of using the slide, painting at the easel, and many other individual activities. A simple, straightforward statement about the principle of turn-taking can lay the foundation for all the turn-taking involved throughout our lives.

Perhaps the very traditional teacher is responding to the situation the way she was raised. On a suitable occasion, at the right time, a friendly discussion of your differing views might be the most productive way to approach her views of how children develop into effective social participants.

IELmoderator
Participants in IEL chats may also be interested in the series of online chats offered by the Center for Evidence-Based Practice: Young Children with Challenging Behavior (CEBP) and the Center on the Social and Emotional Foundations for Early Learning (CSEFEL). For general information on the work of these two centers, visit their Web sites, respectively, at: http://challengingbehavior.fmhi.usf.edu and http://www.vanderbilt.edu/csefel.

So far, four online chats have been held in the CEBP/CSEFEL Chat series. The first of these was "What to Do When Children Say 'NO!'" with Lise Fox from the University of South Florida. This was followed by "Classroom Environments That Work: Preventing Problem Behavior" with University of Illinois professors Micki Ostrosky and Tweety Yates.

The third chat presented information on "Creating Home/Program Partnerships That Work: Supporting Children with Problem Behavior" by Matt Timm of Tennessee Voices for Children. Finally, in the fourth chat, Barbara Smith discussed the topic of "Leadership Strategies for Supporting Children's Social and Emotional Development and Addressing Challenging Behavior."

Further information on each of these chat sessions, including transcripts in English and Spanish, is available on the CSEFEL Chat Resources page at: http://www.vanderbilt.edu/csefel/chat.html.

artsy
Does authoritarian type parenting/teaching have substantial research that supports or negates the role it plays in creativity?

Lilian Katz
artsy, I'm not aware of any research connecting authoritarianism and creativity. But there is research indicating that authoritarian parenting, in contrast to authoritative parenting, has poorer long-term outcomes for children, and is not the best choice.

Authoritarian parenting is usually defined as exercising strong control of the child's behavior, without strong support and warmth. Authoritative parenting, by contrast, is usually defined as exercising control WITH support and warmth. The other style of parenting—permissive parenting—is lots of warmth but no control, and it also has poor long-term outcomes.

artsy
Thank you, Dr. Katz. You've clarified some good old background information. I like the "support part" of authoritative parenting/teaching—it's the missing link. It's such a privilege to be here with you, I might add. Wow!

Deb
What is your advice to parents who want to discourage whining?

Lilian Katz
Deb, first of all, think about how often the whining happens. All children whine some of the time (so do adults!). But if the whining is frequent, on a daily basis, then it may be a hint that the parent is not firm and clear enough about what behavior she wants and doesn't want, or gives up after a few whines from the child. What happens is that children learn that if they whine enough, they can keep the parent's attention and keep the parent interacting with him or her, and that's not the kind of interaction you want to have on a regular basis. As I said earlier, it may be time to change the subject!

IELmoderator
Participants in tonight's Chat session may be interested in a few Tip Sheets prepared by the IEL staff that are related to this evening's topic. These include:

• Say What You Mean! Talking Straight to Children
• Using Words to Discipline Children
• Encouraging Words
• Manners and Preschoolers
• Helping Children Develop "Impulse Control"

IELmoderator
Here's our next question:

Should you limit the times you say "no" to a child to big issues, such as safety? Is it less effective if used often?

Lilian Katz
Certainly safety has to be at the top of the list for any set of limits and rules. "Safety comes before psychology" is probably an expression we should all keep in mind. However, on many safety issues, preschoolers need adults to supervise and protect them; they cannot be expected to worry about their physical safety during the preschool years.

It may not be possible to ration the number of times adults can say "no." But, like everything else—for example, giving children choices, attention, and affection—must be in optimal rather than minimal or maximum frequencies.

How can we tell when we've got to the optimal level? By how well the child is adapting to life around him or her. What's just about the right amount of attention for one child might be too little for another child, or too much for another one. The child's well-being is probably the best guide to judge whether or not we are on the right track.

IELmoderator
Here's a little more about the IEL Tip Sheets. Each of the five Tip Sheets just mentioned earlier is also available in Spanish. See:

• ¡Dime lo que quieres decir! Cómo hablar a los niños de manera franca
• Cómo usar las palabras en la disciplina de los niños
• Palabras animadoras
• Los buenos modales y los niños preescolares
• Ayudar a los niños desarrollar el control de impulsos

IELmoderator
Dr. Katz, here's our next question:

Will telling a child "no" stifle initiative?

Lilian Katz
Probably not. It is important to be selective about what requires a "no" and what doesn't. Children seem to be born with the impulse to take initiative and explore the world around them. Our job is to make sure that they do it safely, and that they gradually learn how to respect aspects of their environment that are not theirs to poke and pry into. A few "no's" here and there, as necessary for the sake of safety and the rights of others, shouldn't interfere with most children's inborn impulse to get going with life.

IELmoderator
Chat participants may also be interested in an earlier Chat session with our guest, Lilian Katz. This chat, held in April 2002, was one of the very first chats in the IEL online chat series. The transcript for the chat, "Supporting Children's Social Development: Strategies for Parents and Caregivers," is available in English at http://illinoisearlylearning.org/chat/katz/trans.htm and in Spanish ("El apoyo del desarrollo social infantil: Estrategias para padres y proveedores de cuidado") at http://illinoisearlylearning.org/chat/katz/trans-sp.htm.

Deb
Could you comment about the importance of getting the children involved in coming up with simple rules for the classroom?

Lilian Katz
Deb, that's an interesting question. A lot depends on the ages of the children. If they are 4 years old, I would not spend a lot of time on discussion of the rules. By the time they are 6 or 7, some involvement in thinking about the rules could be useful. The rules are there to make it possible for the important things to happen.

For example, it's important for all children to get a turn with various toys or activities, and that's why we have rules about turn-taking. When it comes to rules about safety, adults have to take the responsibility. Trying to make preschoolers or kindergartners responsible for their own safety is unrealistic.

IELmoderator
Another place to look for resources related to discipline is in the IEL "Early Learning Web Links" database. This is a database of Web resources on early learning that the IEL staff has compiled, using careful criteria, so that you don't need to wander forlorn through the desert of Google search results! This easily searchable IEL collection of Web links is available at: http://ecap.crc.uiuc.edu/cgi-bin/iel/searchiel.cgi.

Once on the search page, you can search in one of two ways. First, you can search for a word in the title. For example, type "discipline" (without the quotes) in the title box and click on the "Go Search" button.

Second, you can search on pre-assigned keywords. Scroll down to the "Choose the keywords" box and select a term, for example, select "Discipline" once again and then click on the "Go Search" button. With this sample search, you'll find 17 or 18 resources.

jpm
To return to the anecdote about the mother who seemed to be "trumping" the little guy who told his teacher (me) about having three of a popular toy. In that incident, I sensed from his body language that he felt pretty uncomfortable in some way after the other boy's mom mentioned the 100 toys. He had a look that he sometimes got when trying not to cry, which I learned was NOT a signal that he wanted to be comforted. Since neither child said anything, there was nothing verbal to go on. I guess sometimes there is just nothing to say?

Lilian Katz
jpm, yes, that's true. There's little that could be done at that moment.

jpm
Thank you, Dr. Katz ;-) !

IELmoderator
Dr. Katz, here's our last question, from artsy.

artsy
With our at-risk population, we need help saying "No" to parents too. The old traditional activities that they are all too familiar with no longer have meaning but they won't let go of it. How do you tell them "No" to holiday themes that dominate the curriculum? Maybe this is a question for another time. Sorry. I'm just so taken with being here with you. You're a true inspiration to all early childhood educators!

Lilian Katz
Artsy, that does sound like a topic that would be best dealt with in another chat. But thanks for sharing your concerns.

IELmoderator
This brings tonight's online Chat to a close. The Illinois Early Learning project staff would like to thank this evening's chat participants for sending your questions and for being patient in awaiting responses. We invite to join us for our next and final chat in the 2004-2005 academic year. This chat, "The Project Approach and the Early Learning Standards," will be held on Wednesday, June 1, at 7:00 pm Central Time. Our guest speaker will be Sallee Beneke.

IELmoderator
And finally, many thanks to our very own Dr. Lilian Katz, for sharing your insights and wisdom with us this evening.

Lilian Katz
Goodbye, everyone. It's been a pleasure to "talk" with you tonight!

Deb
It has been a delight and an honor to attend this event and speak with you this evening, Dr. Katz. I have learned much from reading your articles and publications over the years, and have a great deal of respect for you. Thank you ever so much.

jeansigne
Many thanks!

IELmoderator
Thanks again, Chat Participants. May our long, long, long overdue Illinois spring finally arrive! Meanwhile, enjoy the rest of this cool evening.

Additional Question

Question
Whenever I am on the phone my kids seem to go wild or start serious squabbling. How can I stop that pattern?

Lilian Katz
The first thing to do is to apologize to the person on the other end of the line, and then hang up. Most phone conversations can be resumed at a later time, or otherwise shortened. In this way you can establish your credibility and the children will learn that your involvement in a phone call is not a signal for them to go wild.

Covering the mouthpiece and threatening punishment when the phone conversation is over and saying things like “Just you wait ‘til I’ve finished!” is not likely to be effective. It is more important to keep the rules and limits reasonable and to stick to them until the children learn that you usually mean what you say.

I say ‘usually’ here because we are human. Complete consistency would be an unrealistic expectation. A person who is always unfailingly consistent in enforcing the rules is not really human! Besides, the ways in which our behavior varies, depending sometimes on the time of day, or life’s usual ups and downs, or other complexities of daily events, are all part of how children learn to adapt to the culture and context in which they grow and live.

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